| | Religious liberty | |
| | Author | Message |
---|
Guest Guest
| Subject: Religious liberty Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:57 pm | |
| "Religious liberty is the chief cornerstone of the American system of government, and provisions for its security are embedded in the written charter and interwoven in the moral fabric of its laws." -- Thomas Y. Bayard |
| | | Warrefok Entheos
Number of posts : 1056 Age : 75 Location : Pretoria - South Africa Registration date : 2007-10-18
| Subject: Re: Religious liberty Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:30 pm | |
| Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum - Lucretius
| |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Thomas Jefferson Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:43 pm | |
| "[My views on Christianity] are the result of a life of inquiry & reflection, and very different from that anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; & believing he never claimed any other." -- Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), US Founding Father, drafted the Declaration of Independence, 3rd US President Source: letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Apr. 21, 1803 "Nothing can be more exactly and seriously true than what is there [the very words only of Jesus] stated; that but a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandising their oppressors in Church and State; that the purest system of morals ever before preached to man, has been adulterated and sophisticated by artificial constructions, into a mere contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves; that rational men not being able to swallow their impious heresies, in order to force them down their throats, they raise the hue and cry of infidelity, while themselves are the greatest obstacles to the advancement of the real doctrines of Jesus, and do in fact constitute the real Anti-Christ." -- Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), US Founding Father, drafted the Declaration of Independence, 3rd US President Source: letter to Samuel Kerchreview, January 19, 1810
"The truth is that the greatest enemies to the doctrines of Jesus are those calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them for the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors." -- Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), US Founding Father, drafted the Declaration of Independence, 3rd US President Source: letter to John Adams, from Monticello, April 11, 1823
|
| | | Warrefok Entheos
Number of posts : 1056 Age : 75 Location : Pretoria - South Africa Registration date : 2007-10-18
| Subject: Re: Religious liberty Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:45 pm | |
| Simsi ... asseblief ... met alle respek ... wat probeer jy sê of bereik met hierdie topic ... ???
Wat probeer jy bewys (of wat probeer jy ontbloot) deur Jefferson aan te haal ... ??? | |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: ... Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:51 pm | |
| Slegs pragtige aanhalings uit Jefferson se skrywes .... |
| | | Warrefok Entheos
Number of posts : 1056 Age : 75 Location : Pretoria - South Africa Registration date : 2007-10-18
| Subject: Jefferson Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:08 pm | |
| Goed ... Waarom is jy so selektief met jou Jefferson aanhalings ??? Laat ek dan maar vir jou so bietjie meer omtrent die man vertel en ook sommer so paar van sy aanhalings vir jou byvoeg.
Jy wil vir Deon Maas gekruisig hê, terwyl jy dink Jefferson aanhalings is "pragtig" ... ???
Albei bepleit vryheid van geloof ... ???
Jefferson was baie beslis nie 'n Christen nie.
- Hy het nie geglo in die goddelikheid van Jesus nie.
- Hy het nie in die drie-eenheid of "trinity" geglo nie.
- Hy het nie in die wederopstanding van Jesus geglo nie.
- Hy het nie die bonatuurlike dinge, in die Bybel beskryf, geglo nie.
- Hy het nie geglo dat die Bybel die woord van God is nie.
Die Jefferson Bybel, of "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth", was Jefferson se poging om die woorde van Jesus, soos in die vier Evangelies van die Bybel, (Die Evangelie volgens Mattheus, Die Evangelie volgens Markus, Die Evangelie volgens Lukas en Die Evangelie volgens Johannes) te versamel. Sy doel was om die doktrine van Jesus daar uit te haal en dié dele uit die sogenaamde Nuwe Testament te verwyder wat bonatuurlike versinsels bevat. Asook om waarneembare wanvertolkings of verkeerde uitleggings deur die gemelde vier Evangeliste daaruit te verwyder."Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." -Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782)Ten spyte van Christen fundamentaliste se pogings om die geskiedenis te probeer herskryf en sodoende van Jefferson 'n Christen te probeer maak, is daar niks in Jefferson se filosofie wat in ooreensteeming met dié van die Christendom is nie.
Jefferson het wel in 'n Skepper geglo, maar sy konsep daarvan was in ooreenstemming met deĩsme, die "Natuur se God" soos deur deĩste gebruik in daardie tyd.
Met sy wetenskaplike uitkyk, het Jefferson gepoog om sy gedagtes rondom godsdiens te organiseer. Hy het die bygeloof en mistisisme van die Christendom verwerp en het selfs so ver gegaan as om die bybel se evangelies te redigeer (edit). Hy het slegs daaruit gevat wat na sy oordeel die korrekte morele filosofie van Jesus was.
Verdraaing van die geskiedenis is aan die orde van die dag onder Christene, ingesluit wanneer en waar ookal Christene die woord "God" teëkom. Christene is blykbaar nie in staat om te sien dat dié woord talle ander definisies bevat wat nie met hulle siening ooreenstem nie. Mense definieer God vanaf die Natuur tot en by die Bonatuurlike.
Hoeveel Christene is in staat om te sien dat die volgende woorde van Jefferson direk gemik was op die tirannie van die Christen "geestelikes" van sy tyd:
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
Christene gebruik die woorde om te probeer bewys dat Jefferson 'n Christen was, sonder om daaraan te dink dat sy God en die Christen se God nie dieselfde wese is/was nie. Daardie woorde kom uit 'n brief aan Benjamin Rush in 1800, in antwoord op Rush se waarskuwing teen die Philadelphia "geestelikes" se aanvalle op Jefferson, wie vir Jefferson as 'n ongelowige uitgekryt het.
Die volledige verklaring lees as volg:
"The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes, & they [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: & enough too in their opinion, & this is the cause of their printing lying pamphlets against me. . ."
As daar enige iets is wat die wanopvattings rondom Jefferson kan opklaar, dan is dit die man se eie woorde ... Jefferson se eie woorde. Die volgende "pragtige aanhalings uit Jefferson se skrywes" wys duidelik hoe hy die konkoksies van die Christen gesien het.=============================================="Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity".
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782 ============================================== "What is it men cannot be made to believe!"
-Thomas Jefferson to Richard Henry Lee, April 22, 1786. ============================================== "Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear".
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787 =============================================="Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination".
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom ============================================== "I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians".
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?") =============================================="I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent".
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789 =============================================="They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion".
-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800 =============================================="Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State".
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802 =============================================="History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes".
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813. =============================================="The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills".
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814 =============================================="Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law".
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814 =============================================="In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own".
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814 =============================================="If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God".
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814 =============================================="You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know".
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, June 25, 1819 =============================================="As you say of yourself, I too am an Epicurian. I consider the genuine (not the imputed) doctrines of Epicurus as containing everything rational in moral philosophy which Greece and Rome have left us".
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, Oct. 31, 1819 =============================================="Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being".
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820 =============================================="To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is".
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820 =============================================="Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind".
-Thomas Jefferson to James Smith, 1822. ==============================================I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did".
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823 =============================================="And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors".
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823 =============================================="It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse or The book of Revelation, last book of the Bible], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams".
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825 =============================================="All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God".
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Roger C. Weightman, June 24, 1826 (in the last letter he penned)
| |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Hello , Ware Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:18 am | |
| Thank you for the above exposition ... I enjoyed reading your input ... I shall reply soon thereto ...
However , the idea with a topic like this is exactly this : .... to get people's views and replications to the utterances of some and certain quotations... of certain men and women not necessarily Statesmen (as in this case) of the past ... and how and if ever and to what extent , the remarks, quotations and utterances of the past remain applicable or not to the present day ...
Firstly , this topic is not about Maas ... I have stated my views , not on "crucifying " Maas , but on my views on satanism as a religion , elsewhere ... may we leave him out of this topic ... His views are not important ... because you know my views on satanism ... satanism is NOT a religion ... unless you classify an infidel a satanist ... I do not ...
With respect , it is hard for me to envisage in the three passages quoted by me ...neither in the ones that you referred to ....a plea by Jefferson that satanism be constitutionialised and regarded as a religion ...
He merely lashes out at the people who pretend to be Christians but have distorted His teachings (for selfgain ) ... on this laters ... (although we have touched on this in debate before ) ...
It is Christmas time ... and also my birthday, although past , the family will be here and I am preparing and very busy workwise as well ... will try to write soon but very busy at the moment ... SIMS ... |
| | | Sponsored content
| Subject: Re: Religious liberty | |
| |
| | | | Religious liberty | |
|
Similar topics | |
|
| Permissions in this forum: | You cannot reply to topics in this forum
| |
| |
| |