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 The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes

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Warrefok
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PostSubject: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:10 pm

.
Why oh why is the homo sapiens species so mind-boggling vulnerable to charlatans ... ???
============================================================

The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes
By Emma Jane Kirby - BBC News, Lourdes - Saturday, 9 February 2008

Lourdes is a massive Roman Catholic pilgrimage site with more hotels than any other French
city, except Paris.


It reminded me of my father's attic - small, overcrowded, fusty, and so stuffed full of junk that the
minute I entered I used to panic, desperate to get out again.

So, when I arrived at my very tired-looking hotel, which appeared to be perfumed by the socks of
last season's pilgrims and saw its lobby, packed full of gaudy Virgin Mary memorabilia, you will forgive
me when the words "Good God!" escaped my lips, and not in any laudatory way.

When I had recovered from my temporary crisis of faith, I set off down the steep hill towards the
famous Lourdes shrine.

I had come early in the pilgrimage calendar and almost every shop and hotel I passed was still
boarded up.

All, that is, except the souvenir shops which were very much open for business.

Their shelves were full of wonders: Virgin Mother statues arranged in height order from miniature to
monster, Holy Mother cigarette lighters and ashtrays, poster-sized holograms which, according to
the angle they were tilted at, showed either the bearded Jesus or the fresh-faced Mary.

Unfortunately the quality was not entirely consistent and I am sorry to say that in some of the
holograms Mary had a permanent five o'clock shadow.

Surely the "magic of Lourdes" - that was the phrase used by so many people I knew who had come
here - had to be more than this.

Crutches of the cured

The fame of Lourdes, of course, is based on the magic of miracles.

In every chapel or church I visited the walls were engraved with stone plaques saying things like
"Thank you, Mother Mary, for giving me back my sight" or "Thank you for saving my son from ruin".

The ceiling of the famous grotto where Bernadette was shown the hidden source by an apparition of
the Holy Virgin used to be fringed with the crutches of the cured.

Today, they have been removed.

Perhaps 21st-Century pilgrims no longer find this kind of faith very palatable.

I suggested this to Patrick Thellier, the Catholic doctor employed in Lourdes by the Church to verify
so-called miracle cures.

He rubbed his temples vigorously in the manner of a man who is relentlessly tortured by his own
brain activity.

"It is a constant balancing act between faith and science for me," he said.

"I know that I see patients to whom something inexplicable and remarkable has happened, but how
can I prove scientifically to other doctors that a miracle has been performed?

"You cannot prove a miracle and, in this day and age, everyone needs proof to believe."

Searching for a miracle

Today's acknowledged miracle recipients are few and far between.

The last was in 1987 and, in his 10 years working here, Dr Thellier has never confirmed a case
himself.

I asked him what he does if someone comes to him clearly sick but convinced they are cured.
He immediately lifts his hands to his face as if to shield himself from the question.

"Don't," he said. "It's pitiful. Oh God, it's pitiful."

Later, at the reciting of the rosary at the grotto, I met a young Austrian woman who told me she
was seriously ill.

She was lighting candle after candle and filling several large bottles with holy water.

"I have come to ask Him to look after me," she said, desperately searching my eyes for
encouragement.

"I need to get better. I need the miracle."

A few paces behind her a man in a tattered jacket was on his knees before the statue of the
Virgin Mary, his face screwed up into a silent scream of anguish.

I told one of the visiting British priests, Father Bob - who had come with Peggy, one of his elderly
and terminally ill parishioners - how uncomfortable I felt witnessing such scenes of despair.

Lighting a candle

Father Bob, a large and jolly Welshman and self-confessed devotee of Lourdes, threw back his head
and laughed.

"Don't you worry about them," he said. "This is their home. Lourdes is a place where the sick don't
just count. They come first."

He jiggled Peggy's wheelchair.

"Isn't that what I always say, Peggy? If you want the front pew at mass, get a wheelchair and
you'll be guaranteed the best seat in the house! Anyway, Peggy's not come for a miracle. She has
just come to find peace."

Father Bob suggested I might find peace in Lourdes if I visited the grotto after dark, long after the
tacky souvenir shops had closed.

So, that night, I sat quietly for a while before the shrine and thought about miracles.

Before I left I lit a candle for the sick Austrian woman.

You just never know.

BBC
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PostSubject: Re: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:57 am

who is the "charlatan" here?....
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PostSubject: Re: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:19 am

seacomic wrote:
who is the "charlatan" here?....
Those who professes "the magic of Lourdes"
Those who professes "the magic of miracles"
Those who professes "an apparition of the Holy Virgin"

Let the truth be told. Dr Theller on miracles:
"in his 10 years working here, Dr Thellier has never confirmed a case himself".
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PostSubject: Re: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:36 am

oh ok....so yr perception/verdict of the truth is based on this Dr Theiller's....."never confirmed a case himself"?...he and we were not there in 1854, was it, when Bernadette claimed to have seen her apparition.....
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PostSubject: Re: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:56 am

seacomic wrote:
oh ok....so yr perception/verdict of the truth is based on this Dr Theiller's.....
"never confirmed a case himself"?...
No ... my perception/verdict is merely confirmed by the doc.
In his ten years of working there ... no miracles !!!

In fact, when he was asked:
I asked him what he does if someone comes to him clearly sick but convinced they are cured.
He immediately lifts his hands to his face as if to shield himself from the question.

He responded as follows:
"Don't," he said. "It's pitiful. Oh God, it's pitiful."

Says it all.

seacomic wrote:
he and we were not there in 1854, was it,
when Bernadette claimed to have seen her apparition.....
Exactly ... It is all based on hearsay, rumour, gossip ...

Nobody can bring Bernadette to testify for us, but I can bring you
scores of peeps who have personally "seen" the Tokkolosh ...
what is your
perception/verdict on that ... ???
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PostSubject: Re: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:22 am

Warrefok wrote:
seacomic wrote:
oh ok....so yr perception/verdict of the truth is based on this Dr Theiller's.....
"never confirmed a case himself"?...
No ... my perception/verdict is merely confirmed by the doc.
In his ten years of working there ... no miracles !!!

In fact, when he was asked:
I asked him what he does if someone comes to him clearly sick but convinced they are cured.
He immediately lifts his hands to his face as if to shield himself from the question.

He responded as follows:
"Don't," he said. "It's pitiful. Oh God, it's pitiful."

Says it all.


Oh?....what happened to live and let live then?.....believe and let believe?
you are basing yr confirmation on a Dr.?


seacomic wrote:
he and we were not there in 1854, was it,
when Bernadette claimed to have seen her apparition.....
Exactly ... It is all based on hearsay, rumour, gossip ...

Nobody can bring Bernadette to testify for us, but I can bring you
scores of peeps who have personally "seen" the Tokkolosh ...
what is your
perception/verdict on that ... ???

poor excuse for the sceptics, WF....."cant bring the dead back to testify"...
millions believe in the tokkolosh.....my belief in that, is seeing is believing....nothing more nothing less....but I will never question their "seeing" the tokkolosh, at all....that would be totally presumptious of me....
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PostSubject: Re: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:05 am

seacomic wrote:
Oh?....what happened to live and let live then?.....believe and let believe?
you are basing yr confirmation on a Dr.?
The doc merely confirmed what hundreds, if not thousands before him confirmed ...
It is childish to try and pin my views exclusively to the doc's words ...
You very well know that that is not the case ... I am not one track minded

What does "live and let live" have to do with the subject ... ???
"Believe and let believe" is a new one added by whom ... ???

Anyone is free to believe what they want ...
The problem starts when they demand "respect" for the crap they believe in ...

seacomic wrote:
poor excuse for the scepticals, WF....."cant bring the dead back to testify"...
millions believe in the tokkolosh.....my belief in that, is seeing is believing....nothing more nothing less....but I will never question their "seeing" the tokkolosh, at all....that would be totally presumptious of me....
Poor excuse is in fact presumptuous ... even arrogant
Why is it a poor excuse ... because you and nobody else can answer to that "excuse" ...

If Maria did in fact appear to
Bernadette, then it is not for me, nor for you to testify about it ...
In fact, it's got nothing to do with us at all !!!
If it is to be our business, then she (Maria) should/would appear to us personally as well ...

To take it one step further ...
The same holds true with so called "revelation" ...

If God chose to "reveal" something to, let's say Moses,
then that was a "revelation" to Moses ... not to me or you ...

If Moses tells me that God appeared to him, then that "revelation" is automatically hearsay to me ...

If God has the need to tell me something, he surely is able to tell me personally ...
not via a barbaric-age so called prophet ...
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PostSubject: Re: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:34 am

Warrefok wrote:
seacomic wrote:
Oh?....what happened to live and let live then?.....believe and let believe?
you are basing yr confirmation on a Dr.?
The doc merely confirmed what hundreds, if not thousands before him confirmed ...
It is childish to try and pin my views exclusively to the doc's words ...
You very well know that that is not the case ... I am not one track minded


I do believe you said it, WF...
"No ... my perception/verdict is merely confirmed by the doc.
In his ten years of working there ... no miracles !!!"

and who is talking about being childish and/or one-track minded?


What does "live and let live" have to do with the subject ... ???

"live and let live" is appicable to this subject and any other subject where there are 2 or more different points of view, opinions, WF..

"Believe and let believe" is a new one added by whom ... ???

is the norm surely, in any given society, WF?....look all around this world, you might notice there are quite a few different "believe and let believe" around....we all have the freedom of choice in this world....and will not be dictated to as to what we must believe in....it's our personal choice...

Anyone is free to believe what they want ...
The problem starts when they demand "respect" for the crap they believe in ...

that depends entirely on the person, WF.....really....I, personally, would just appreciate that my beliefs are respected, as I respect the next person's belief....

seacomic wrote:
poor excuse for the scepticals, WF....."cant bring the dead back to testify"...
millions believe in the tokkolosh.....my belief in that, is seeing is believing....nothing more nothing less....but I will never question their "seeing" the tokkolosh, at all....that would be totally presumptious of me....
Poor excuse is in fact presumptuous ... even arrogant
Why is it a poor excuse ... because you and nobody else can answer to that "excuse" ...


you either believe that Bernadette saw The Virgin Mary, or you dont....quite simple, really....you either believe in the tokkolosh or you dont.....


If Maria did in fact appear to
Bernadette, then it is not for me, nor for you to testify about it ...
In fact, it's got nothing to do with us at all !!!
If it is to be our business, then she (Maria) should/would appear to us personally as well ...


aaahhhh...so why then your opening sentence of "charlatans, WF?...


To take it one step further ...
The same holds true with so called "revelation" ...

If God chose to "reveal" something to, let's say Moses,
then that was a "revelation" to Moses ... not to me or you ...

If Moses tells me that God appeared to him, then that "revelation" is automatically hearsay to me ...

If God has the need to tell me something, he surely is able to tell me personally ...
not via a barbaric-age so called prophet ...

hmmm, WF.....just to short-cut your argument....God gave Moses the Ten Commandments for His people....to live by....as we try to live by them still to-day.....to me it was more than a revelation, it was a way of life determined by God to His people, us , included....no more, no less....

you are entitled to view him, Moses, as a barbaric-age so-called prophet....I see him as a messenger from God....what an honour it must've been for him, Moses....
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PostSubject: Re: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:49 am

oh....and yr scores of peeps having seen the tokkolosh as well...is also then hearsay to you, right....
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PostSubject: Re: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:57 am

seacomic wrote:
oh....and yr scores of peeps having seen the tokkolosh as well...is also then hearsay to you, right....
Off course yes ... what else is it ... ???
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PostSubject: Re: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:59 am

good, as long as we understand each other.... Knipoog

geez, and after all my debating, you have nothing to say?....c'mon WF......you disappoint me..... geek
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PostSubject: Re: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:47 pm

Anyone is free to believe what they want ...
The problem starts when they demand "respect" for the crap they believe in ...

I'll go with that.....But lets face it, it is as natural to expect/demand others to believe what one believes to be the truth...as it is to oppose it. Any opposition in this case could be seen to be an arguement for the opposite case......If that makes any sense....

Thing is, we all have a different truth. Demands or forcefull opinions are as bound to cause friction as they are to invite opposition.

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PostSubject: Re: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:50 pm

seacomic wrote:
I do believe you said it, WF...
"No ... my perception/verdict is merely confirmed by the doc.
In his ten years of working there ... no miracles !!!"

and who is talking about being childish and/or one-track minded?

If you are under the impression that my above statement was meant to convey that my
perceptions and/or views on any topic is exclusively based on, or dependant on those of
the doc, then I invite you to explain to me how on earth you came to that conclusion.

When I say "confirmed by the doc" ... does that in your opinion make my views dependent
on those of the doc ... ??? If so then explain please.

seacomic wrote:
"live and let live" is appicable to this subject and any other subject where there are 2 or more different points of view, opinions, WF..
Does "live and let live" mean that we are not allowed to express our different points of view ... ???
Does it mean that I am not allowed to tell you why I do not believe what you believe ... ???

The phrase "live and let live" is surely totaly out of bounds where two people are debating an issue ...
It is indeed oxymoronish to use it in a debate of difference of opinions ...
The nature of a debate is to differ, and to express those differences ...
otherwise there would be no debate to begin with ...

If "live and let live" was the motto of both both debaters ... then both would shut up ...
and to shut up is not to debate ...

seacomic wrote:
... ... ... and will not be dictated to as to what we must believe in....it's our personal choice...
So why do Christians send missionaries around the globe ...
why do they try to convert peeps to their beliefs ...
Why do they go on crusades ... words used by Bush (withdrawn later) when he invaded Iraq ???
If it is in fact "believe and let believe" then why do the Christian engage in all the above exercises ... ???

seacomic wrote:
that depends entirely on the person, WF.....really....I, personally, would just appreciate that my beliefs are respected, as I respect the next person's belief....
I told you before ... I am repeating it here ... believe what you want to believe ...
but do not expect me to respect nonsense


seacomic wrote:
you either believe that Bernadette saw The Virgin Mary, or you dont....quite simple, really....you either believe in the tokkolosh or you dont.....
I believe not one of the two ... so what is your problem with that ...
If you, or anybody else for that matter, are able to prove it, then I might change my views ...
but you very well know that no-one can do so ...

seacomic wrote:
aaahhhh...so why then your opening sentence of "charlatans, WF?...
You repeat a question that was already answered ... ... your very first question was
"
who is the 'charlatan' here?"
and I answered you then ...

seacomic wrote:
hmmm, WF.....just to short-cut your argument....God gave Moses the Ten Commandments for His people....to live by....as we try to live by them still to-day.....to me it was more than a revelation, it was a way of life determined by God to His people, us , included....no more, no less....
How do you know ... surely you were not there (as you stated elsewhere) ...
You were also not present when the Quran was revealed ...
do you take that as devine revelation as well ... ??? ... also on hearsay ... ???

seacomic wrote:
you are entitled to view him, Moses, as a barbaric-age so-called prophet....I see him as a messenger from God....what an honour it must've been for him, Moses....
Take him for what you want ... just do not expect of me to respect that ...
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PostSubject: Re: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:54 pm

The problem starts when they demand "respect" for the crap they believe in ..

That doesnt sound like a debate to me....hehehehe
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PostSubject: Re: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:00 pm

Drewberryboy wrote:
I'll go with that.....But lets face it, it is as natural to expect/demand others to believe what one believes to be the truth...as it is to oppose it. Any opposition in this case could be seen to be an arguement for the opposite case......If that makes any sense....

Thing is, we all have a different truth. Demands or forcefull opinions are as bound to cause friction as they are to invite opposition.
The difference DBB, is this ...
Agnostics do not run around the globe telling people to believe this or that,
as the Christian do ...

An attempt was made by Christians to brainwash me into their set of beliefs when I was a child.
The same thing happens today with other children.
For that very reason I feel entitled to answer them now that I know better ...

If Christianity is allowed to teach their beliefs in schools, then so should Atheists, Aagnostics,
Buddhists, Hindus and Muslims, to name but a few, be allowed to teach theirs.
And that includes EVERY school, not just a selected few ...
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PostSubject: Re: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:06 pm

It still does not give you the right to call the Lourdes believers charlatans, WF....
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PostSubject: Re: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:07 pm

seacomic wrote:
It still does not give you the right to call the Lourdes believers charlatans, WF....
Where did I do that ... ???
Let them believe what they want to believe ...
But they do not stop there ... they make money out of and "convert" others their beliefs ...

Where does your believe and let believe fit in now ... ???
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PostSubject: Re: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:12 pm

or perhaps none of the above should be taught at schools.....would be my solution.
There is no reason to my mind, to force any belief system on anyone.....more over
it is the responsibility of the parents to instill values and beliefs in their children.
In a perfect world............................................................But it's not is it?

*Drew hear bells ring and remembers comments made in a convo with Anita Richards, you may recall WF*

I'm sure that while this is the case.....many children still benifit from the teaching
of specific religions in school....once again, one can't please everyone.
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PostSubject: Re: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:20 pm

Eish bru....

The difference DBB, is this ...
Agnostics do not run around the globe telling people to believe this or that,
as the Christian do ...

The problem starts when they demand "respect" for the crap they believe in ...

But Warre.....Are you saing that we should not believe you, or believe you?

Sounds like you are saying we should believe you, because what they say is crap?
Think about it....or have got thisall wrong?
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PostSubject: Re: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:30 pm

Warrefok wrote:
seacomic wrote:
I do believe you said it, WF...
"No ... my perception/verdict is merely confirmed by the doc.
In his ten years of working there ... no miracles !!!"

and who is talking about being childish and/or one-track minded?

If you are under the impression that my above statement was meant to convey that my
perceptions and/or views on any topic is exclusively based on, or dependant on those of
the doc, then I invite you to explain to me how on earth you came to that conclusion.

When I say "confirmed by the doc" ... does that in your opinion make my views dependent
on those of the doc ... ??? If so then explain please.


come now, WF....you know and I know different, I was just pointing out yr statement....


seacomic wrote:
"live and let live" is appicable to this subject and any other subject where there are 2 or more different points of view, opinions, WF..
Does "live and let live" mean that we are not allowed to express our different points of view ... ???
Does it mean that I am not allowed to tell you why I do not believe what you believe ... ???

The phrase "live and let live" is surely totaly out of bounds where two people are debating an issue ...
It is indeed oxymoronish to use it in a debate of difference of opinions ...
The nature of a debate is to differ, and to express those differences ...
otherwise there would be no debate to begin with ...

If "live and let live" was the motto of both both debaters ... then both would shut up ...
and to shut up is not to debate ...


oh , so you see this "debate" then as a winner and a loser scenario, WF?


seacomic wrote:
... ... ... and will not be dictated to as to what we must believe in....it's our personal choice...
So why do Christians send missionaries around the globe ...
why do they try to convert peeps to their beliefs ...
Why do they go on crusades ... words used by Bush (withdrawn later) when he invaded Iraq ???
If it is in fact "believe and let believe" then why do the Christian engage in all the above exercises ... ???


aahhh WF.....really, you can take a horse to the water, but you cannot make him drink....ring a bell?
you really expect me to believe that the missionaries around the world forced Christianity on the peoples?


seacomic wrote:
that depends entirely on the person, WF.....really....I, personally, would just appreciate that my beliefs are respected, as I respect the next person's belief....
I told you before ... I am repeating it here ... believe what you want to believe ...
but do not expect me to respect nonsense


well then, you have made your point, hmmmm....so what is the use of your posting this then, name calling etc.....if there is no respect from your side....what did you expect from my side, WF......if there is no self-respect, there cannot be respect for the next person....


seacomic wrote:
you either believe that Bernadette saw The Virgin Mary, or you dont....quite simple, really....you either believe in the tokkolosh or you dont.....
I believe not one of the two ... so what is your problem with that ...
If you, or anybody else for that matter, are able to prove it, then I might change my views ...
but you very well know that no-one can do so ...


aaahhh you might not believe, WF.....does not mean I do not believe in Moses and God....you think you are superior to me, by any chance?


seacomic wrote:
aaahhhh...so why then your opening sentence of "charlatans, WF?...
You repeat a question that was already answered ... ... your very first question was
"
who is the 'charlatan' here?"
and I answered you then ...

seacomic wrote:
hmmm, WF.....just to short-cut your argument....God gave Moses the Ten Commandments for His people....to live by....as we try to live by them still to-day.....to me it was more than a revelation, it was a way of life determined by God to His people, us , included....no more, no less....
How do you know ... surely you were not there (as you stated elsewhere) ...
You were also not present when the Quran was revealed ...
do you take that as devine revelation as well ... ??? ... also on hearsay ... ???


its my faith, WF.....faith.....of course I take it and believe it to be a divine revelation, God giving Moses the tablets.....yes, we werent there in 1854 , we werent there in the desert with Moses....that a revelation in itself.....


seacomic wrote:
you are entitled to view him, Moses, as a barbaric-age so-called prophet....I see him as a messenger from God....what an honour it must've been for him, Moses....
Take him for what you want ... just do not expect of me to respect that ...

well then....cannot expect much from you anyway, hmmmm....just talking for the sake of talking....a 1-sided debate.....regardless of the other sides opinion....you are and will not be interested....or respect my point of view......wow.....what we doing here then, WF.....just gotta listen to YOUR point of view, YOUR opinion?
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PostSubject: Re: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:31 pm

Drewberryboy wrote:
Eish bru....

But Warre.....Are you saing that we should not believe you, or believe you?

Sounds like you are saying we should believe you, because what they say is crap?
Think about it....or have got thisall wrong?
If it sounds like I am trying to cinvince you to believe any specific thing,
then tell me what it is you think I want you to believe ...

I am responding to people who want me to believe what they believe ...
not the other way around ...

I already explained why I feel I am entitled to respond to their proselytizing (word, spelling?)
or their missionary activities ...
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PostSubject: Re: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:34 pm

Further to the above......What gets me, is that disciplines, for eg Christianity teach that their belief is the one true way.....It's limiting....as is being agnostic etc......How strange it is to my mind, one is the same as the other, in opposition.

Sea..

aahhh WF.....really, you can take a horse to the water, but you cannot make him drink....ring a bell?
you really expect me to believe that the missionaries around the world forced Christianity on the peoples?

Yes Sea, they absolutely did..........
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PostSubject: Re: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:39 pm

Warre

It stands to reason that if you state they are talking crap, that what you believe must be the truth.
Otherwise you would have to be prepared to be wrong.....

Isn't it obvious? I think you want me to believe that they are wrong.....Don't you?
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PostSubject: Re: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:48 pm

seacomic wrote:
... ... ... well then....cannot expect much from you anyway, hmmmm....just talking for the sake of talking....a 1-sided debate.....regardless of the other sides opinion....you are and will not be interested....or respect my point of view......wow.....what we doing here then, WF.....just gotta listen to YOUR point of view, YOUR opinion?
By your own admission SC ... you do not have an opinion ... you have faith ...
Faith means to believe the unknown, the unprovable ...
Your beliefs do not bother me ... what bothers me is when you (the Christian),
sends out missionaries to convert people from other "faiths" to believe what you believe ...

I never, as far as I can recall, tried to tell you what you must believe ...
I only respond when others, like mentioned in the article,
try to convince others to believe what they believe.

If you do in fact have an opinion, then state it clearly please ...
faith is faith and not an opinion ... please ...
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PostSubject: Re: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:51 pm

oh come now, WF....stop splitting hairs.....faith/opinion.....my opinion is my faith....my faith is my opinion.....
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PostSubject: Re: The challenge of finding peace in Lourdes   Today at 12:43 am

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